19 replies to this topic

[Starfire]

Probably one of the most gargantuan highway celebrations ever undertaken is in the works for the Centennial of The Old Spanish Trail, i.e.; U.S. 90 from St. Augustine, Florida to Van Horn, Texas and U.S. 80 from that point to San Diego, California. The decade of celebration is from 2019 through 2029.

The headquarters for the Celebration is in San Antonio, Texas as was the original routing effort in the 1920s. The organization's site can be found at OldSpanishTrailCentennial

The site contains a huge amount of information on the OST, including original routing maps. I found the original alignment between Houston and San Antonio to be quite interesting as I live just about 2 miles South of part of that route and have traveled part of the original portions some of which is now designated as U.S. 90A and some of which is now county roads having been decommissioned with alignment changes.

In the very near future I'll begin posting details and photos of both the original alignments (where they can be found) as well as the present alignment between Houston, Texas and Seguin, Texas. This will represent adding some 90 miles of what is now U.S. 90A to the project I had described as from Columbus, Texas to Seguin, Texas.

Stay Tuned..........

Edited to fix link.

Edited by DennyG, 27 March 2008 - 09:19 PM.

[mobilene]

Wow! That sounds really cool. I hope you'll keep us up to date as planning continues. jim

[DennyG]

Jim, I edited your original post to straighten out the link to the centennial site. Hope you don't mind. For others, I suggest you take advantage of that link. There's a ton of good stuff there and I'm guessing it will continue to grow up to and through the party.

I've driven some of the OST west of Phoenix and just a tinsy bit in the east. I'd like to think I can get in quite a bit more before the party starts and cover it all at least once before it ends. The OST has plenty of history and, it appears, a fair amount of existing roadside attractions. Any party that lasts ten years is OK by me.

[Starfire]

Jim, I edited your original post to straighten out the link to the centennial site. Hope you don't mind. For others, I suggest you take advantage of that link. There's a ton of good stuff there and I'm guessing it will continue to grow up to and through the party.

I've driven some of the OST west of Phoenix and just a tinsy bit in the east. I'd like to think I can get in quite a bit more before the party starts and cover it all at least once before it ends. The OST has plenty of history and, it appears, a fair amount of existing roadside attractions. Any party that lasts ten years is OK by me.

No problem Denny I'm obviously still familiarizing myself with the features of the forum software. Having a bit of trouble with the link I just resorted to using script commands to get the job done. Not real neat, but worked.

There is a privately maintained web site out of St. Augustine, Florida devoted solely to the OST, but unfortunately I found a number of terrible errors in it regarding early alignments, so I didn't link it. The most glaring error being the idea that U.S. 90 back in the 1920's followed what is now U.S. 290 going West to a junction with U.S. 80. Never did! Always went from San Antonio to Uvalde, to Del Rio, to Alpine to Van Horn.

That stretch of U.S. 90 is like turning back the clock in many respects. Once on the outskirts of Uvalde heading toward Del Rio one used to be greeted with a sign stating "No Gas for the next 70 miles." Actually it should have said "No nothing for the next 70 miles" though there are two small communities (virtually ghost towns) and two roadside picnic areas. There is an ample population of rattle snakes, coyotes, and wild javelina hogs (nasty creatures) however.

Del Rio is where Wolfman Jack first blared across the AM radio airwaves from studios in Texas, and a 100,000 watt transmitter located across the river in Mexico. I've often wondered how he got from New York to a pretty much God Forsaken border town in the middle of the Texas-Mexican desert. Talk about culture shock!

Jim

[DennyG]

There is a privately maintained web site out of St. Augustine, Florida devoted solely to the OST, but unfortunately I found a number of terrible errors in it regarding early alignments, so I didn't link it. The most glaring error being the idea that U.S. 90 back in the 1920's followed what is now U.S. 290 going West to a junction with U.S. 80. Never did! Always went from San Antonio to Uvalde, to Del Rio, to Alpine to Van Horn.

I can't be certain that you're talking about DriveTheOST but it does seem to fit the description including what I think might be your US-290->US-80 reference. DriveTheOST is maintained by John and Kris Murphy who are both the moderators of this sub-forum and primary authors of the Old Spanish Trail column in American Road Magazine. If that is the site, I'm sure John and Kris would welcome knowledge of any perceived errors.

[Starfire]

I can't be certain that you're talking about DriveTheOST but it does seem to fit the description including what I think might be your US-290->US-80 reference. DriveTheOST is maintained by John and Kris Murphy who are both the moderators of this sub-forum and primary authors of the Old Spanish Trail column in American Road Magazine. If that is the site, I'm sure John and Kris would welcome knowledge of any perceived errors.

Denny you are correct in your speculation of the site I didn't mention. After reading your comment I became very curious as to how the Murphy's would have come up with the routing and a little investigation gave me the answer. The confusion, if one wants to call it that, comes from the brochure released in April, 1923 by the OST Headquarters in the Gunther Hotel in San Antonio. Basically, the brochure contained a number of routes (alignment proposals) that were in some cases never adopted as the official route of U.S. 90. My statement on U.S. 90 never having followed in whole or part of what is shown on some maps as U.S. 290 is correct when I compare with Rand McNally Maps of 1927 and National Map Company's 1928 Maps. (The routing of U.S. 290 having ever touched San Antonio is of serious question though shown on some maps as having done so, but that is another investigation, many maps show U.S 87 being what is indicated as the initial leg of that shown as U.S. 290 West from San Antonio on some maps).

In the brochure it is quite apparent there were a number of proposed routes for various legs of the OST in Texas in the specific case the one shown as option number 4 is the one which was ultimately officially adopted. There are also discrepancies in what is in the brochure for East of San Antonio routings verses what was actually adopted.

I have to say giving that brochure a serious examination was truly most interesting for me as many of the names of those described as "Councilors" for various local communities and the names of some of the businesses were quite familiar to me. In some cases I actually have met the individuals or their sons and daughters. In years past I have spent the night in the Gunter Hotel in San Antonio on more than one occasion, as it was a favorite of my Father when in San Antonio on business.

In general comment, the population of Texas in 1930 was a whole rip snorting 4.5 million (about half of Metro Houston's population today) and in the days of trying to determine the route for the OST both travel and communications would have been a bear. A great part of the State had no electrical service, no telephone service, and many roads were absolutely abysmal making automobile travel impossible in certain places during rainy periods. Mexican bandits on horseback were still frequently a problem on the U.S. side of the Texas - Mexican border in the 1920's.

Edited by Starfire, 28 March 2008 - 01:52 PM.

[Starfire]

Because of the vast number of discrepancies I have found between brochures issued by the original OST group between 1923 and 1930 and road maps of the same period and into the mid 1930's I have spent the better part of the afternoon attempting to resolve the differing routes and alignments. As a result, I have concluded the route designated as U.S. 90 from Houston to Van Horn, Texas fell out of lock step with the route recognized by the OST group at different points in time between 1926 and 1930. I can come up with no explanation as to why the OST group would have held on to one set of routes when the State and/or Federal Government recognized another, as so published by more than one map company. However, I must note there are also significant discrepancies between map company products regarding the alignment of U.S. 290, the route of which is shown on the OST group's maps as being a part of the OST going West from San Antonio; something I believe to be totally in error with respect to official U.S. Highway designation. It is interesting to note that particular routing is almost identical to the routing of I-10 West from San Antonio.

These discrepancies tend to spur me on to give very close examination and photographically record what is actually on the ground with respect to the various alignments of U.S. 90 between Houston and San Antonio and most particularly the portion(s) lying between Eagle Lake, Texas and Seguin, Texas. Fortunately, I am very familiar with the locations of these conflicting routes and alignments. Significant portions of all are still in existence and are still in use as County Roads or State Highways.

[DennyG]

Was the OST somehow sanctioned by federal or state governments? I don't know much about the OST but that is certainly different from the named highways (e.g., Lincoln Highway, National Old Trails Road) that I am more familiar with. Those roads were privately organized and route sharing with any government group was essentially coincidental. You express surprise that

...the route designated as U.S. 90 from Houston to Van Horn, Texas fell out of lock step with the route recognized by the OST group at different points in time between 1926 and 1930.

but that is exactly the behavior I expect with other named highways and the numbered US routes of 1926 and later. Is there reason to expect the OST to behave differently?

[Starfire]

Was the OST somehow sanctioned by federal or state governments? I don't know much about the OST but that is certainly different from the named highways (e.g., Lincoln Highway, National Old Trails Road) that I am more familiar with. Those roads were privately organized and route sharing with any government group was essentially coincidental. You express surprise thatbut that is exactly the behavior I expect with other named highways and the numbered US routes of 1926 and later. Is there reason to expect the OST to behave differently?

Good point Denny. It seems in advance of the Federal Highway Act of 1926 there were many "non official" highway promotion groups which organized in realization something needed to be done with the nation's road system to promote the better movement of goods and materials, as well as to allow the budding automotive tourist industry to grow. Those groups were attempting to connect as many regional commerce centers and communities as possible which often resulted in their initial routes being somewhat of a mess compared to that which ended up being designated as a U.S. Highway. Even before there were real designated Federal highways no one wanted to be by-passed.

I guess the thing that baffles me about U.S. 90 and the info published by the OST group or commission is the group continued to hang on to their routing concept even after various aspects of the route was designated differently by the State and Federal Government. I suspect that is one mystery which may never be figured out.

In addition to the photos I'll be taking, I have several dozen road trip photos from the mid 1930's taken by my parents which may well include segments of U.S. 90 as it was then. I even have the Kodak camera that they used to take the photos, still works.

[mobilene]

In addition to the photos I'll be taking, I have several dozen road trip photos from the mid 1930's taken by my parents which may well include segments of U.S. 90 as it was then. I even have the Kodak camera that they used to take the photos, still works.

Cooooooool! I hope you publish some of those photos for us all to enjoy.

I used to have a large collection of old cameras. It's amazing how many old Kodaks I had that still worked. If they're not abused and are kept out of the damp, many of them can function for a hundred years.

jim

[Starfire]

Cooooooool! I hope you publish some of those photos for us all to enjoy.

I used to have a large collection of old cameras. It's amazing how many old Kodaks I had that still worked. If they're not abused and are kept out of the damp, many of them can function for a hundred years.

jim

Yes, I'll be sure to include any of the old 1930's photos applicable to U.S. 90 with the newer ones. Actually there are more than just dozens of old photos taken during trips my parents made in the mid to late 1930's. There is a pretty good size storage container full of them. The are inclusive as I recall of trips beginning near St. Louis to Yellowstone, Pikes Peak, a loop through Texas, including the Rio Grande Valley. As I recall many of the U.S. designated highways depicted in those photos were gravel. Gonna have to do some digging and sorting. Guess the old scanner is finally going to get enough use to justify having it...

Yeah, those old Kodaks were pretty rugged. While I haven't gone looking for any of all the film types required by old cameras I have I suspect some are getting hard to come by and not something anyone would find these days in their local Walgreen's or Wal-Mart.

Edited by Starfire, 29 March 2008 - 10:22 AM.

[mobilene]

Actually there are more than just dozens of old photos taken during trips my parents made in the mid to late 1930's. There is a pretty good size storage container full of them. The are inclusive as I recall of trips beginning near St. Louis to Yellowstone, Pikes Peak, a loop through Texas, including the Rio Grande Valley. As I recall many of the U.S. designated highways depicted in those photos were gravel.

You may have the holy grail there! I hope that as time and opportunity present, you will share. I've never seen a photo of a gravel US highway. Closest I've come is to drive a road in western Indiana identified as an old alignment of US 36. It's gravel. Here are some photos: http://www.jimgrey.n...of_Bellmore.htm

While I haven't gone looking for any of all the film types required by old cameras I have I suspect some are getting hard to come by and not something anyone would find these days in their local Walgreen's or Wal-Mart.

Finding film for old cameras has become increasingly difficult over the past 20 years. The older the camera, the more likely you can't get film for it. It is actually easier to identify the sizes still in production. 35mm film remains relatively popular, of course. Size 120 still exists, primarily because it's still used in professional applications. You can still get 110 film if you look hard. You can buy foreign-made 126, 127, 620, and 828 only from specialty retailers and it co$t$ bigtime. You can even spool your own 620 film using 120 film and two 620-sized spools -- the only thing different between the two is the spool. If your camera takes any other size, as far as I know you're out of luck.

I blogged a few times about old cameras. I included some photos taken with a couple of my old cameras -- ones I could get film for, anyway, when I took the photos, going back to the 1980s. My favorites were the 1930s Ansco box camera (120 film) and a Kodak Duaflex from the 50s (620 film -- could still get that film when I had the camera).

http://jimgrey.wordp...i-like-cameras/
http://jimgrey.wordp...om-old-cameras/

I started collecting again in the past couple years, half-heartedly, and here's the camera I got most recently:

http://jimgrey.wordp...-synchro-model/

Peace,
jim

[Starfire]

This past weekend I took a few minutes to visit some of the original alignment of U.S. 90 in Colorado County, Texas. I found and actually drove on around three miles of the original concrete highway from the very early 1920s. That segment of the old highway is maintained by the county and is signed "Old Highway 90." Further to the West in the town of Columbus, Texas a portion of the original alignment is used as a city street and runs parallel to the U.S. 90 alignment of 1932 or 1939 vintage (still working on the date with some bridges dated 1932 and others to the west dated 1939). Further to the West of the town of Columbus is another portion of the original alignment now signed as County Road 217, which extends several miles to the Borden Community and the location of a General Store that goes back to the days of Gail Borden (Borden Milk) having lived in the area.

As a side note: Gail Borden was a surveyor who was responsible for having surveyed a great deal of South Central Texas before moving to New York to found the Borden Milk Company. Due to health reasons many of his last days were spent in the community bearing his name.

Edited by Starfire, 31 March 2008 - 05:44 PM.

[mobilene]

I see from Google Maps that CR 217 uses the old follow-the-railroad-track trick. Looks like the north frontage road for I-10, just west of where 217 ends, might also have been US 90?

[Starfire]

I see from Google Maps that CR 217 uses the old follow-the-railroad-track trick. Looks like the north frontage road for I-10, just west of where 217 ends, might also have been US 90?

Yes, what appears to be a North frontage road for I-10 at that point is indeed the last and current alignment of U.S. 90. Where CR 217 intersects with U.S. 90 is the location of the Borden General Store, which by the way is now basically an eatery. I'm not absolutely certain at this time from the point of that intersection just exactly what the original alignment followed. I'm hoping to find an old county road map that will clear that up in my mind. If that quest fails a copy of the 1920 something Texas Almanac will have a shrunken version of the county map of the time. There are several points to the West of the CR 217, U.S. 90 intersection that look as if they might have been part of the old original alignment.

The original alignment of U.S. 90 in the next county to the West is going to be quite interesting. I have found an old bridge on a little used county road there that leads me to believe it was part of the original alignment. If I'm correct I have located the original alignment between the towns of Weimar and Schulenburg.

Digging this out is a lot like a scavenger hunt.

[Starfire]

Been doing a bit of exploring and found roughly another 11 miles of the OST, which became the original alignment of U.S. 90 between the Texas towns of Weimar on the East and Schulenburg on the West. This section is partially in two counties and portions are maintained by the State of Texas and by Colorado County respectively. Going West out of Weimar on Jackson Street the road becomes CR 253 which eventually junctions with Farm to Market Road 1593. About 5 miles East of Schulenburg one will cross one of the original bridges which has a bronze plaque dated 1922.

[Starfire]

Great Disappointment!

After two weeks or so of looking to help the people trying to do the OST 100 year celebration I've decided to throw in the towel. They have virtually no concept of what they are doing and are seemingly more interested in identifying and perhaps saving old buildings than actually attempting to identify original alignments or organizing driving events along what was the OST. In five years of working on the project they have yet to really accomplish much in the sense of creating a national interest in touring the OST or U.S. 90 as it is known East of Van Horn, Texas and U.S. 80 from that point to San Diego.

They seemed more interested in promoting some cockamamie walking tour along the OST 2700 mile route than seeing automobiles running the route. Which struck me as pure lunacy knowing well the nature of all things West of Junction, Texas. Get three feet off the pavement and find yourself waist deep in rattle snakes for starters. No significant signs of civilization in some cases for close to 100 miles. Not real good country to be hoofing it through for the most part, and it gets worse through New Mexico and Arizona!

[Roamndav]

I have not had the time nor opportunity to travel the OST/old US 90 corridor. Please post some pics of your journey!

Cheers,
Jeff

[Starfire]

I have not had the time nor opportunity to travel the OST/old US 90 corridor. Please post some pics of your journey!

Cheers,
Jeff

Jeff, I'm presently working on organizing photos along the OST from Columbus, Texas to Seguin, Texas. Have far too many to just upload without reducing down to the more important. The small communities along that stretch of the OST have done such a great job in saving so many things along the route it's hard not to get too many photos.

Jim

[Starfire]

Was the OST somehow sanctioned by federal or state governments? I don't know much about the OST but that is certainly different from the named highways (e.g., Lincoln Highway, National Old Trails Road) that I am more familiar with. Those roads were privately organized and route sharing with any government group was essentially coincidental. You express surprise thatbut that is exactly the behavior I expect with other named highways and the numbered US routes of 1926 and later. Is there reason to expect the OST to behave differently?

Like most or all of the "named trails" the OST was not a Federal effort.

I've got to eat a bit of crow here. For a nine year period Texas Highway 27, which the OST followed going West from San Antonio, was designated as U.S. 290 according to TxDot. In 1935 U.S. 290's route changed dramatically linking to U.S. 90 in Houston and running Westward through Austin, Fredericksburg, and Junction then to an intersection with U.S. 80 some fifteen or so miles East of Van Horn, Texas.

Jim

Edited by Starfire, 19 May 2008 - 10:37 AM.